Is IAPT a barrier to entry?

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Obti
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Is IAPT a barrier to entry?

Post by Obti » Sun May 31, 2015 10:24 am

I was wondering if IAPT would be a barrier to entry for clinical psychology, whilst I know many individuals do use it to gain relevant experience is it frowned upon by those conducting the clinical application process for someone to shortly switch from IAPT to clin-psy?

I've recently come to the end of my Masters/conversion degree (currently with a distinction although more likely ending up with a high merit), as for work experience I have the following:
- 10 months voluntary work MIND
- 6 months support work (learning disabilities)
- 18 months support work (community mental health)

Theoretically I could I apply for clinical psychology next year, I'm also guaranteed an interview due to a disability. However, should I take the IAPT route I won't be able to due to being on the course, I'm also thinking the following year it would be looked down upon to apply having only worked in IAPT for 6 months and therefore may be seen as wasting NHS resources?

wysiwyg13
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Re: Is IAPT a barrier to entry?

Post by wysiwyg13 » Sun May 31, 2015 10:55 am

It might depend on each course, but I have got a place for clinical training in September this year, and I have just finished my training as a PWP. I applied when I had only just started my trainee PWP role. I also know people that have applied as qualified PWPs and trainee HI therapists and they have got onto a clinical course. Again, it might depend on the courses you apply to, but I wasn't asked about my trainee status at all, I did mention it a few times in my interview in response to certain questions and it didn't seem to be an issue.I fully intend to remain in the NHS when I have completed clinical training, and didn't expect to get on this year.

Many people in my IAPT service leave as soon as they are qualified for PWP roles closer to home, and that is widely accepted and expected in our service- which I suppose could also be seen as a waste of the service's resources as they have trained you and then you are leaving and using those skills in a different service. However, from my point of view, I have worked very hard for the service, we have been expected to do things that are beyond our job role and trainee status and (for want of a better phrase) I think (and I realise this may be a contentious point) even when taking into account university fees, the service have got their 'money's worth' out of us.

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ClaireEmma
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Re: Is IAPT a barrier to entry?

Post by ClaireEmma » Sun May 31, 2015 11:22 am

I know Essex say on their entry requirements that you'd be expected to work as a PWP for a certain amount of prior to applying, I think it's 2 years they ask for, so check with the courses you like. I'd have a think about why you want to do the course, rather than say applying for AP jobs, if you intend to leave straight away. It is true that you get a lot of client contact time but they train you to be a PWP which is a very different job to a CP and courses are looking for more than just experience of delivering therapy.

As for the ethics, having worked in IAPT as an AP I have seen how many problems it causes when people leave straight after finishing the training, the service ends up perpetually recruiting trainees but never having any qualified, experienced PWPs. I think if asked about it in the interview for either a trainee PWP role or the course I would struggle to explain why I want to spend/ have spent a year and however much NHS money training for a job I don't actually want or intent to perform when that place could have gone to someone who wants to do it as a career, but on the other hand I guess it's not unreasonable to want a plan B in a career as uncertain as CP, so it's a difficult one.

bluegoat
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Re: Is IAPT a barrier to entry?

Post by bluegoat » Sun May 31, 2015 11:29 am

ClaireEmma wrote:I know Essex say on their entry requirements that you'd be expected to work as a PWP for a certain amount of prior to applying, I think it's 2 years they ask for, so check with the courses you like. I'd have a think about why you want to do the course, rather than say applying for AP jobs, if you intend to leave straight away. It is true that you get a lot of client contact time but they train you to be a PWP which is a very different job to a CP and courses are looking for more than just experience of delivering therapy.

As for the ethics, having worked in IAPT as an AP I have seen how many problems it causes when people leave straight after finishing the training, the service ends up perpetually recruiting trainees but never having any qualified, experienced PWPs. I think if asked about it in the interview for either a trainee PWP role or the course I would struggle to explain why I want to spend/ have spent a year and however much NHS money training for a job I don't actually want or intent to perform when that place could have gone to someone who wants to do it as a career, but on the other hand I guess it's not unreasonable to want a plan B in a career as uncertain as CP, so it's a difficult one.
Most services offer 12-month training contracts anyway. The funding for the trainees is different to the funding for the permanent staff, so it doesn't actually "cost" anything to the service.

In terms of people who want to do the PWP training, and stay at that level, I have yet to meet one. From my PWP cohort, every single one has moved on to either HI, Counselling or Clinical Psychology.

The people behind the programme realise that PWPs don't stay being PWPs for too long, hence why they have introduced the PWP to High Intensity specialist trainings.

So to answer your question, I don't think IAPT would be a barrier to being shortlisted or offered a place.

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ClaireEmma
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Re: Is IAPT a barrier to entry?

Post by ClaireEmma » Sun May 31, 2015 1:40 pm

That's really interesting, where I work most PWPs have been there for 5-7 years, a couple have become HITs or gone elsewhere, but for most it's a career in it's own right. It certainly seems to be emphasised here in the selection process that it is not intended to be a stepping stone, but perhaps different services view this differently. I suppose I was thinking of cost in terms of time as well as money, always training people rather than having more autonomous or experienced PWPs. It's probably best to check with the CP courses you want to apply to, people certainly do go from PWP to trainee but as I said some courses appear to have rules about it so it could potentially be a longer route if it was one of those courses. That said it can take several years to get on the course anyway so if you think you would enjoy the role and get a lot out of it, then staying for longer might not be a bad thing.

Adski
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Re: Is IAPT a barrier to entry?

Post by Adski » Sun May 31, 2015 6:12 pm

Interesting post...

I have exp as a PWP and I can't think of a time when it has been a problem or a barrier. I went from HCA to PWP to AP to RA. It was the high volume contact in the IAPT service that made me stand out for the Assistant Psychologist post. I think a lot of courses are starting to see PWP exp as valid exp due to the amount of client contact and with the increasing difficulty of getting an AP post.

The one drawback with PWP / HI posts is that they are not normally supervised by a clinical psychologist which is its main drawback. Other than that I think PWP is great exp of common mental health difficulties, using structured interventions.

Has anyone had clear exp of when IAPT exp has been a problem?

Alex
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Re: Is IAPT a barrier to entry?

Post by Alex » Sun May 31, 2015 8:58 pm

This has been discussed on previous threads as well if you wanted to search. I think that most courses do not stop PWPs from entering clinical training straight after training as a PWP. The Essex course expect applicants to fulfil their obligation after training, as stated on their website:
I am currently an IAPT worker, will I be considered for the course?
We will consider IAPT (or any other NHS-trained professionals) once they have been in their role within the IAPT service for two years. This is to ensure that those who have already received NHS-funded training fulfil their current obligation before undertaking further NHS-funded training.
I think it is more of an ethical issue if you intend to leave straight after PWP training rather than a barrier.

bethpaterson
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Re: Is IAPT a barrier to entry?

Post by bethpaterson » Sun May 31, 2015 10:11 pm

Hello,

I've heard from talking to / reading about loads of people who've been IAPT workers, even LI trainees who have got doctorate interviews and some have got places, so it's definitely not a barrier. Except for Essex, which has been pointed out. You might want to check individually with other courses too.

I've applied for LI training this year as a possible way in as it's so hard to get an Assistant Psychology post! Like the sound of band 5 on qualifying too :D

Beth

nunnkle
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Re: Is IAPT a barrier to entry?

Post by nunnkle » Mon Jun 01, 2015 4:01 pm

Hi.

I agree, I relaly think Iapt is a great pre clinical training experience, however you should aim to commit to it for at least 1 year post training year I think. I think this gives you a chance to progress in the role, take on leadership roles like supervising other PWPs and vhnteers, leading on research or specialist client groups etc, it also the. Kind of "pays back" you training.

I got on to clinical training this sept and have been a Pwp for 3 years including my training year, For the last year Ive been a senior PWP and working 1 day a week as an AP in CAMH on secondment from my IAPT service. I've also had opportunity to lead I. Research and do audit and poster presentation and some teaching. This has all made so much difference to my clinical application and to confidence at interview. I'd really recommend Iapt as experience if you're interested in developing sound grounding in basic CBT.

5 PWPs got into training from my service this year (including 1 at Essex who has been Pwp for 2 yrs including her training), 3 last year, and a further 4 people I know from my Pwp training days are also on training. It's not a definite route, just like everything else, but I think you can make a lot from the role.

Best of luck

sophieso
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Re: Is IAPT a barrier to entry?

Post by sophieso » Mon Jun 01, 2015 4:10 pm

Hi there,

In some trainee PWP roles you are 'tied in' to working as a PWP for a period of time after qualifying (I think 2 years is common), so if you leave during the time you have to repay your fees. I can see the rationale for this as it costs a lot to train someone and they don't want them to leave soon after qualifying. It's worth checking your contract carefully and perhaps asking a (carefully worded) question at interview along these lines.

I would also add that not all clinical doctorate courses operate the 'two tick' guaranteed interview scheme for people with a disability, although you may know that already.

Hope that helps,
Soph

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Geishawife
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Re: Is IAPT a barrier to entry?

Post by Geishawife » Mon Jun 01, 2015 4:47 pm

Obti wrote: I'm also guaranteed an interview due to a disability.
This is only guaranteed if: A) the course you apply to operates this scheme and B) if you also meet that course's minimum criteria. I think it's important people realise the limits of the "2 tick" scheme! It's obviously of huge benefit, but is not always a guarantee of an interview.

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Mikel Arteta
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Re: Is IAPT a barrier to entry?

Post by Mikel Arteta » Sun Jul 05, 2015 5:23 pm

I qualified as a PWP in 2010. I started the doctorate in 2011. I don't think it's a good diea applying when in the middle of IAPT training, but after finishing fine. There were about four previous IAPTY workers in my cohort.
Blackbird singing in the dead of night, take these broken wings and learn to fly, all your life
you were only waiting for this moment to arise
:)

BurntCynic
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Re: Is IAPT a barrier to entry?

Post by BurntCynic » Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:23 pm

Not in my experience! I know a lot of people that got on after working at IAPT. The only NHS experience I had was IAPT and it worked for me! The clinical skills and experience you gain can be invaluable in the application/interview process, and I am assuming during training as well.

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