Alternatives to Jordan Peterson

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Campion
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Re: Alternatives to Jordan Peterson

Post by Campion » Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:34 pm

miriam wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 3:47 pm
I should also add that plenty of (to my eye) overtly fascist figureheads have been lifted too, from Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, Steve Bannon, Milo Yiannopoulos and Nigel Farage to Donald Trump himself. However, like Christina Hoff Summers, Peterson's academic credentials and ability to skirt the extremes that have become the demise of many others...
I'm sorry M, are you suggesting here that Jordan Peterson and Christina Hoff Sommers are somehow skirting fascism? If so, given that the politics of fascism are fairly comprehensively known and well-defined, could you please explain how, and provide evidential examples of this behaviour on their part?

I'm not going to laud the virtues of either, nor condemn their vices, that's not my place here, but accusing them of skirting fascism - if indeed that is what you are doing - is a strange argument from a sociological position and one I'd like to hear you make if you wouldn't mind.



Campion.
'Think how many blameless lives are brightened by the blazing indiscretions of other people.' - Saki.

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Re: Alternatives to Jordan Peterson

Post by miriam » Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:32 am

Campion wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:34 pm
could you please explain how, and provide evidential examples of this behaviour on their part?
No. My energy and this psychology forum are not going to be diverted into a debate about where the boundary between the alt-right and fascism lies.

What I said was what I meant. Lots of neo-fascists have been lifted by the alt right. JBP and Sommers both cultivate the same audiences of straight white men threatened by progress towards greater rights and protections for women and minorities, and rail against the same enemies, but have avoided the pitfalls that have beset other figureheads in the same movement, who have expressed more overt/extreme views.

Whatever your politics or views of individuals that have been mentioned, my position is pretty clear: I don't own/fund this forum for it to be a platform for prejudice, to promote the work of those who are actively working to harm the rights of women/minorities, or to link to alt-right publications.
Miriam

See my blog at http://clinpsyeye.wordpress.com

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Campion
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Re: Alternatives to Jordan Peterson

Post by Campion » Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:19 pm

Hmmm...

If I concede that the question I asked was improperly framed, and that you may fairly have felt I was attacking you out of nowhere, or defending Jordan Peterson apropos of nothing then I can certainly understand why you have reacted this way. As I asked the question in good faith, I will presume your response is likewise and apologise if I have made you feel you need to defend yourself in a place where you have responsibility for the political and intellectual safety of that space.

The general insistence in modern politics, I would argue, is that 'anyone to the right of me is morally evil and anyone to the left of me is a dangerous idiot'. It's something I've seen building up across the political spectrum for quite some time, and I'll admit that may well be because I'm looking for it (a known flaw of sociologists in general). However, if I'm right in this assumption, then this may explain why we frequently rage against imagined collectives from a position of political narcissism, and why the worst antagonists for both conservatism and progressivism have so strongly moved towards attacking people on the basis of their immutable traits.

I'm as concerned as you are with how we are moving forward socially at this time; there are some disturbing changes happening in the socio-cultural sphere right now. The argument that everyone I don't like can be put into the same basket marked deplorables shouldn't however be a position we are trying to enact though. It's a failed thesis; and even Hillary Clinton accepts that particular phrase helped lead us towards a Trump presidency in the United States in 2016 (and our continued enactment of such naïve politics in the socio-cultural sphere, I would argue, now threatens us with a repeat of that in November of this year).

I see a lot of water between people like JP or CHS and Milo or Yaxley-Lennon, if you don't then that's fine. I'm not here to argue that you are wrong, only to ask how you came to that conclusion and ask if you think the idea that whilst they don't fit in to the same basket of deplorables, but they lead other people unknowingly to it's edge is a useful insistence in the current political environment, particularly if it is a claim made without evidence (regardless of what the reason for so doing is).

As I said, I'm not looking to attack or defend anyone and if the way I've framed the question has made further conversation impossible for you, then I apologise for so doing.




Campion.
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Re: Alternatives to Jordan Peterson

Post by miriam » Fri Jul 17, 2020 12:58 am

I'm saturated with straight white men asking me so politely and rationally to explain that sexism and racism exists, or that so and so is really saying anything unreasonable. Maybe I reached that saturation point in the 3.5 years you've been away. Or maybe you've missed the many conversations about this repugnant man in the interim. But this is a psychology forum, not a politics forum, and I/we don't owe you explanations that satisfy your intellectual curiosity. I said I didn't want to take my time or my forum to argue politics or semantics with you. I don't enjoy it, or think it will change either of our perspectives. It seems very disrespectful to insist on an answer to your question, nonetheless.

If you are interested in JBP and/or the alt right, feel free to read up about it. Some of the following might give interesting contextual information:

About JBP: 1, 2, 3
About Gamergate: 4 (if you wonder how this relates to JBP, check his posting history, eg this and note the fact that his involvement in gamergate and use of that audience when he "hit a hornet's nest" by attacking political correctness and gender pronouns launched him into public view beyond his dwindling influence in the psychology of personality, see search frequency chart in top link for timing. For wider context on gamergate read 4a, 4b)
About how this relates to alt-right: 5
About how this relates to facism: 6
And Sommers is an anti-feminist who also rode the gamergate wave. They call her "based mom". Enough said.

Seeking out those links has wasted another evening of my time, down a very unpleasant rabbit hole of the internet. I'm not going to waste another.
Miriam

See my blog at http://clinpsyeye.wordpress.com

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Campion
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Re: Alternatives to Jordan Peterson

Post by Campion » Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:14 pm

miriam wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 12:58 am
I'm saturated with straight white men asking me so politely and rationally to explain that sexism and racism exists, or that so and so is really saying anything unreasonable. Maybe I reached that saturation point in the 3.5 years you've been away. Or maybe you've missed the many conversations about this repugnant man in the interim. But this is a psychology forum, not a politics forum, and I/we don't owe you explanations that satisfy your intellectual curiosity. I said I didn't want to take my time or my forum to argue politics or semantics with you. I don't enjoy it, or think it will change either of our perspectives. It seems very disrespectful to insist on an answer to your question, nonetheless.

I didn't think I was insisting on anything, but you're right, at least insofar as that I've been gone from the forum for 3 and a half years and that you really don't owe me anything. I do appreciate you providing those links however, that made for interesting reading. Thank you for that.



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Re: Alternatives to Jordan Peterson

Post by miriam » Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:13 pm

Campion wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:14 pm
I didn't think I was insisting on anything, but you're right, at least insofar as that I've been gone from the forum for 3 and a half years and that you really don't owe me anything. I do appreciate you providing those links however, that made for interesting reading. Thank you for that.

Campion.
I'm not saying you are unwelcome here, just that I don't have the capacity or inclination for this line of conversation at the present time. You will know from the past that, like Spatch, I enjoy the theoretical and semantic debates you favour most of the time, but at the moment issues around diversity/discrimination/populism/politics of hate are too raw and painful for too many people to fall into the category of theoretical/semantic as they tie into personal lived experiences and secondary trauma - something that most white men might be quite oblivious to. I also recognise that my resources (and I'm sure those of many other people) are worn thin by coping with the constant fear and uncertainty of coronavirus, and the state of politics in the UK and wider world, and I have less emotional capacity to spare for off-topic discussion.
Miriam

See my blog at http://clinpsyeye.wordpress.com

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